Original | Odaily Planet Daily ( @OdailyChina )
Author: Wenser ( @wenser 2010 )
At the beginning of the new year, PENGU tokens have been online for more than a month, and the Abstract mainnet has just been launched. As the crypto media that pays the closest attention to Pudgy Penguins, the Abstract ecosystem and its parent company Igloo.Inc, Odaily Planet Daily conducted an in-depth interview with Pudgy Penguins CEO Luca Netz, and had detailed discussions on topics such as PENGU tokens, Abstract ecosystem, L1L2 network competition, and the Ethereum VS Solana vision dispute, in order to obtain more insights into the crypto industry from Lucas perspective.
The following is the transcript of this exclusive interview. Some content has been edited and adjusted for readers’ reference.
Note: The questioner was Mandy, CEO of Odaily Planet Daily, and Wenser, a reporter of Odaily Planet Daily. The answerer was Luca Netz, CEO of Pudgy Penguins. The interview took place on January 31, 2025.
Odaily Planet Daily interview excerpt video
Q1: After the issuance of PENGU tokens, has the focus of Pudgy Penguins and its parent company Igloo.Inc changed?
Luca：Yes, change is happening. Although everyone in the crypto industry (especially those who received the PENGU token airdrop) knows Pudgy Penguins, there are still many people who don’t understand what special significance we have for the crypto industry and what our ultimate vision is.
So, the focus of our work has become - How to impress new community members and the entire crypto world and show them what we can do? In other words, there are many things we need to do, such as letting hundreds of thousands of new community members know what we are doing and showing them our ideas. Of course, everyone will see our follow-up actions soon.
Luca himself appeared at the launch of the PENGU token
Q2: The Abstract mainnet has just been launched. Are the data in all aspects in line with expectations? Can you share the future ecological development and key layout?
Luca: Simply put, in the Abstract ecosystem, what we want to do is to turn it into the most interesting place in the crypto world and an ecosystem that provides a crypto-friendly experience from 0 to 1. If you log in to the Abstract network and experience the current mainnet, we have achieved this in stages.
Abstract The ecosystem allows third-party integration and allows users to join in the form of their preference. Different from other on-chain ecosystems where users can only join in a specific process and way, our user experience process is more open and flexible. If users do not like certain fixed processes, they can omit them.
In addition, in about 3-4 weeks, the Abstract ecosystem will be widely discussed in the crypto space: we have a lot of integrations and plugins to bring a lot of liquidity, trading volume, TVL, etc. here. It is worth mentioning that we are not optimizing for this, on the contrary, we are optimizing for the better experience of users and their family and friends around them. If they log in to the abs.xyz official website, they will get a good user experience.
By then, an extremely hot and active on-chain ecosystem will be presented to the public. Whether it is network competition at the L1 or L2 level, Abstract is confident that it will stand out.
When others chose to go left, we chose to go right - this is the story of Fat Penguin and Igloo. When everything is ready, people will look back on this moment and be surprised to find that it turns out that the Fat Penguin team had such a vision.
Odaily Planet Daily: Can you reveal a little about the “big event” in 3-4 weeks?
Well, first of all, it is estimated that a large number of Web2 live bloggers will enter the Abstract ecosystem; secondly, an ecosystem consisting of 40-50 active funds will gradually appear. Finally, I look forward to linking the Little Fox wallet or voluntarily accessing the Abstract ecosystem and more third-party projects in the form of my own wishes.
Odaily Planet Daily: We found that the current UI and other designs of the Abstract mainnet are very Web2, and the interactive experience is very smooth. Is this design intentional?
Yes, because it’s necessary if our goal is to drive consumer adoption. Just like many projects have taken the same approach to building on-chain ecosystems over the past 5 years, they chose to go left; we chose the opposite path - we want to capture new people who have not yet entered the on-chain world, even though it may make the existing on-chain community uncomfortable. If we tell those users that it will take them hours to piece together various fragmented information and figure out how to transact on Ethereum, now they can just log in to abs.xyz and master on-chain transactions in 20 minutes.
We are bringing millions of new people into the on-chain world in a way that has never been tried before.
Q3: This was also the purpose of NFT, but the overall vitality of the NFT market is not good in this cycle. How do you view the subsequent development direction of the entire NFT industry? Opensea recently released the 2.0 points system. Many people are looking forward to Openseas subsequent coin issuance and airdrops. Will this bring any changes to the NFT industry?
Luca: I think it will be difficult for the NFT industry to recover unless some kind of minimum royalty system is adopted.
Because what really makes NFT great is the act of minting. For now, the survival environment of the top blue-chip NFT projects is still acceptable. Fat Penguin, Doodles, BAYC, Azuki, Milady, CryptoPunks, etc. We are still at the table, right? If we failed, we might have disappeared long ago.
So, people just choose a certain tribe or community that they label themselves as and put forward their own views. Therefore, if you want to revive NFT, low royalties are essential. Compared with other tracks in cryptocurrency, the most interesting and competitive part of NFT is its minting and opening. Then the question becomes: if the project party has no other income after the NFT is minted, then they have no motivation to launch a new project. This is an important obstacle that makes many people stay away from NFT. This is also the reason why many people choose to launch a token on pump.fun. This is what I think is the essence of competition. We must respect the wishes of the majority.
Many leading projects in the market have their own ideas about success, but obviously, they don’t consider the needs of more people. Of course, I respect those who are brave enough to try. But in the past, many people who are building protocols and blockchain ecosystems usually choose to start with an NFT project to expand their community core, rather than starting with core products (such as blockchain, exchanges, or related things). So, this is the direction we chose.
Odaily Planet Daily: Will OpenSea’s token bring changes to the NFT industry?
Luca: Definitely not.
Q4: You have positioned PENGU as a Meme coin many times before, so can you share some future plans for PENGU, such as staking, repurchase, destruction and other use cases?
Luca: To be honest, we have hidden a lot of things in PENGU. The reason why PENGU is positioned as a meme coin is that meme coins give people a more interesting feeling without considering too much competition.
In terms of the market value of Meme coins, PNEGU is currently ranked 12th (data here are from the time of the interview. According to Coingecko data, as of the time of writing, PENGUs market value ranks 9th in Meme coins and 117th in cryptocurrency market value).
PENGU token market capitalization ranking: 9th in Meme coin track
At the same time, Pudgy Penguins-related memes have hundreds of millions of views every day; millions of physical toy products related to Pudgy Penguins have entered millions of homes, and no other meme has achieved this. The fat penguin can be said to be the most adorable and widely used crypto-native image in the past few years, triggering the love and resonance of people from Asia, North America, Europe and even all over the world. It is a completely original, immortal and continuously tested meme, which is rare.
Fat penguin memes have been viewed over 40 billion times
So, in conclusion, no matter from which aspect, in terms of its importance and popularity, Pudgy Penguins and PENGU are not just ranked 12th among Meme coins. I personally think it should at least be in the top three.
At the same time, Meme coins that do nothing will gradually be eliminated, and it is unrealistic to expect changes in the waiting. We can see that Trump has taken the lead in changing the game situation - Trump launched his official Meme coin, and many people will follow suit, and a lot of hot money is also gradually gathering here, but it is a huge mistake to want to win the Meme coin without doing anything.
How we view Fat Penguin and the PENGU token is crucial, we see it as a “Meme Coin++” version of the token.
You have to build a brand; you have to create more demand around the IP; you have to break down barriers and break boundaries; you have to become more popular; you have to become more infectious and contagious; you have to become a cultural phenomenon.
How to do it?
Games, movies, TV shows, content, social media, memes, gifts, toys, statues, collaborations with well-known brands, embedding yourself in the culture. You have to take all of them into account, otherwise it will be difficult for you to become the ultimate winner.
Secondly, a deflationary token economic model and telling a more convincing story are essential. As we all know, PENGU was issued in the United States, which is eye-catching. But how do people view PENGUs token economics, understand the supply and demand of tokens and how it works, and how to reduce the token supply?
We have a lot of things in the pipeline and will reveal them gradually in the coming months. To be honest, I am very inspired by the way BONK and BONKbot work. If some projects are not good at doing this, they should improve it in time, otherwise we will replace them.
The days when a successful meme coin could be created with an animal picture and a so-called strong community are gone. Because Trump and TRUMP opened Pandoras box in an inevitable way - those animal meme coins in the past could not stand the test of time and survive the influx of hot money and new things. Every week, every few days, you have to take the initiative to respond, burn tokens, and get out of trouble. You have to stay competitive in the process of moving the industry forward. Otherwise, the end is not good.
Therefore, the reason why PENGU is regarded as a Meme coin is that its technical architecture determines its Meme coin attributes; its token symbol has a penguin image with extremely Meme attributes; it has been distributed to countless holders; and its related elements have been embedded in cultural phenomena.
The reason why we consider it the Plus version of Meme Coin is that we plan to promote and sell it in the worlds largest retail chains; promote it on the big screen of movies; write it into a novel; and put it in the form of a game on the AppStore and countless network desktops.
We will also bring on more well-known partners that the crypto space has never seen before, and we have to do that.
Sometimes, I ask myself: How can we destroy some of the PENGU tokens and let it ride out of the market?
As long as we do the above things, a positive success flywheel will be generated. This is our thinking path. PENGUs 12th place in the Meme coin category is obviously not satisfactory to us, and many people will disagree with this. On the other hand, if PENGU becomes part of content in the form of movies, games, etc., just like our achievements in the NFT field, we will also completely transform the Meme coin field.
Q5 : Will PENGU tokens have more connections or cooperation with Pudgy Penguins and Abstract in the future? Will Abstract issue its own tokens in the future?
Luca: In this regard, I have received some information, and it seems that many people have misunderstood this for some time. I have explained a lot to members of the Western community before, and I have also tried my best to inform partners in the Eastern community of the corresponding information.
(Odaily Note: Pudgy Penguins officials previously stated that the PENGU token will be linked to Abstract, leading the market to speculate that it will become an Abstract chain token, but in fact they have no such intention)
We are doing something for the PENGU token community, and there will be more surprises waiting to be revealed in the future. Although not everyone is necessarily looking forward to it, we have been doing things, including getting more community members to join us, creating more value for PENGU holders, and so on.
But human power is limited, and a lot of information remains only within a certain range. We may have reached 10,000 people, but there may be 1 million PENGU token holders. Many times we may have entered an information cocoon.
So, the current consensus is that my job is to integrate resources as much as we can, but having done integration once does not mean that we only need to do integration. Just like in the past few years, we have been integrating resources with Pudgy Penguins as the center and constantly iterating and updating. But we did not integrate the Abstract ecosystem and bridge the liquidity to it in the form of multiplier points or soft pledges. This is not how it works here, and its starting point and end point have nothing to do with this.
This is built for real use cases, just a case, not a special benefit or welfare. In this regard, we must ensure that all information comes from official channels and the information is clear, even a simple tweet. Therefore, PENGU, Abstract and related news releases are part of our work, not all of it.
As for Abstract’s token, when competition becomes more intense, I think it will undoubtedly have its own corresponding token. But it will take some time.
As for how PENGU will be integrated with it, I can only say that I am very much looking forward to it, and the community will also be excited, and there may be amazing convergences at that time, but the primary goal now is not this, but we have a lot of brand partnerships, how to show them to the world.
In the next few weeks, our focus will be on highlighting the competitiveness of the Abstract ecosystem.
The future of fat penguin is the sea of stars
Q6 : What do you think about the launch of Trumps authentic meme coin TRUMP? Have you personally invested in it?
Luca：I know the people behind the project. I am familiar with them. We have known each other for many years, even before I entered the crypto industry. But I didnt get inside information and buy it first. I just took a little swing. When I saw the TRUMP token, its FDV was already $5 billion. So I bought $50,000 and sold it soon after.
I had the chance to make a lot of money, but I didnt. Because I thought it was too expensive at the time, especially its FDV seemed really high, plus Trump had some crypto projects with small market capitalizations before. My logic was to put TRUMP on the same level as DJT stock, which also has a market capitalization of about $5 billion. (Odaily Planet Daily: Although 80% of TRUMP tokens are locked) Yes, that is an obvious wrong comparison.
Q7 : Trump chose Solana when issuing Meme, which made the discussion of Ethereum VS Solana more intense. You also chose to issue coins on Solana. In a previous interview, you said that Solana has proved itself to be a Consumer Chain. Can you explain the difference between consumer chain and financial chain; and looking back on this choice now, is it in line with expectations?
Luca：Yes, for us, choosing Solana as the token launch ecosystem is the right decision. In terms of onboarding new users, Solana is at the forefront, and it can even be said that no ecosystem does it better than it. We also hope that Abstract can bring the same results that the Solana ecosystem has achieved to the EVM ecosystem. From our perspective, the Solana ecosystem focuses on user experience, which is something that the Ethereum ecosystem does not do, and it is also a reflection of the different goals of the two.
Specifically, the Ethereum ecosystem is striving to become a decentralized network country, and the realization of this vision is vital to every human individual, which is obvious; on the other hand, Solana is striving to build the best and better-performing blockchain ecosystem, and they are doing their best to win the competition.
So, they have different visions: Ethereum is committed to becoming an important, decentralized, and censorship-resistant ecosystem; Solana tries to expand the capabilities of blockchain and constantly present and iterate new things. The latter undoubtedly emphasizes organizational leadership, execution is more top-down, with clear instructions and strict execution. So, this is two cultures, two visions.
Therefore, it is difficult to compare the two outside the scope of the blockchain ecosystem. In this regard, in my opinion, they are more like indirect competitors rather than direct enemies because their missions are fundamentally different.
Mandy: Yes, with the launch of PENGU and TRUMP tokens, the Solana network has been under tremendous traffic pressure, but it has successfully withstood the test again and again. If other blockchain networks encounter the same situation, the possibility of network paralysis is very high. Just like no blockchain network ecosystem has ever reached a daily transaction volume of 30 billion US dollars in the DEX.
Q8 : Abstract contributor cygaar previously had a conversation with joshrudolf.eth, a member of the Ethereum Foundation team, on X, expressing that EF has not had enough contact with projects on the Ethereum chain. EF people also admitted that there is room for improvement in their work. Vitalik also previously published an article proposing the idea of restructuring the EF leadership, which also caused a lot of controversy. What do you think of all this? How do you view the relationship between L1 and L2? Has the EF team contacted you recently?
Luca: No, the Ethereum Foundation has never communicated with me.
Although I personally am happy to communicate with EF, because based on the achievements Pudgy Penguins has made in the Ethereum ecosystem over the past few years, Pudgy Penguins can even be regarded as one of the best projects in the Ethereum ecosystem, but they have never contacted me.
To be honest, as an entrepreneur, this doesn’t feel very good. On the contrary, when I entered the Solana ecosystem, if I wanted, I could communicate with Solana co-founders Toly and Raj at any time, no matter where. I have discussed this issue privately with my mentors and friends before.
The conclusion is that Ethereum is not born for this (as we mentioned earlier, its mission vision is a cyber nation); Solanas mission is this. Ethereums vision is not to reach builders and cultivate them, although these builders are the biggest driving force behind the greatness of this ecosystem. I personally do not agree with this way of doing things, but, you know, Ethereums mission is above all else, its goal is to be a resilient blockchain network that is censorship-resistant, even if no one uses it, it still serves this goal.
Its not there to cater to me. Although, I think if they could work on that, Ethereum would be more successful from a price perspective.
Just as the Trump Meme coin boosted the Solana ecosystem and the SOL price, just as a few years ago, don’t underestimate the NFT hype that boosted the Ethereum price surge - the NFT bull run brought ETH to an all-time high price. Today, not so many people are rushing into Ethereum to trade NFTs because there is nothing for ordinary people. This is why Solana has achieved what it has today; and the Ethereum ecosystem was still turning a blind eye to NFT projects that were built for years a month ago. When I put Pudgy Penguins-related physical toys on the shelves of Walmart, I still had a hard time getting any form of recognition from these people. I have to say, this feels bad.
Because I was contributing value to a network that didn’t value my value, but as I realized after communicating with my mentors: there was nothing to complain about because the Ethereum ecosystem was not interested in this.
Communicating with the top people at Solana is much smoother, which is why I think Solana is at the top today. Before this situation changes, the Ethereum ecosystem may still be in a difficult situation. This is not even a special case for the NFT track. People at the Ethereum Foundation even seriously underestimated the value of DeFi, which is really crazy. Although in terms of historical time, NFT is earlier than DeFi. So, I think they may be turning a new page and understanding the importance of DeFi and NFT.
Of course, the reality is that EF developers are not a team familiar with business operations, and this is not their function. So, I understand them, and I respect all of them very much. After all, they are an important cornerstone of the Ethereum ecosystem.
Q9 : How do you view the competition in the blockchain network ecosystem? With so many L1 and L2 networks, how do you define and build your own core competitiveness?
Luca: I think there are only 4 blockchain networks that are highly competitive and have real vision and adoption, including ETH, Solana, Base, and SUI (perhaps giving SUI more recognition than many people imagine, although many people may ignore it, it is indeed on the list).
Because I do know that there are some things happening in the SUI ecosystem. To be honest, it is really difficult to judge and filter. Including ZKSync, Arbitrum, Optimism and other networks are more like super chains or elastic chains or other core layers, rather than real blockchain network ecosystems. This is my personal perspective.
Because these networks would rather have others build L2 and L3 networks based on their technology stack rather than being the central destination for everyone to flock to, they are not concerned about consumer adoption rates, but are more concerned about partnering with Azuki or Pudgy Penguins, and then these projects drive consumer adoption.
In simple terms, they dont care about individual users, whether its your family or your friends, they just want to be the center of their own ecosystem. So its a completely different business model.
Among these four, Ethereum is loyal to its mission; Solana, Base, and SUI may be in the same competitive position, ranking first, second, and third. The problem between them is that Base may not have a unique advantage that is different from Solana, and it may not be very competitive in the EVM system. At the same time, the territory of the EVM system is still shrinking.
This is what Abstract wants to do, facing Base and other networks head-on, but our user interface and user experience have certain differentiation. Interface innovation is the direction of Abstracts efforts, and it is also the means for us to win in terms of user experience, brand, community, etc.
In addition, it remains to be seen that Base cannot just do common things like the Solana ecosystem. If you adopt a follower strategy, then Base, as an extension of the Ethereum network ecosystem, will fail in this ecological competition for capital. Ethereums capital is not equivalent to Bases capital. You must have something different.
Of course, I must admit that the Base ecosystem team is really amazing, especially after a few months of building the Abstract network, I can better appreciate how incredible their work is, and they are constantly launching amazing products. So we have learned a lot standing on their shoulders, and I hope that the above words can serve as a supplementary perspective for their reference.
So what was the most challenging part of building a blockchain network? Especially if it was something you didn’t expect?
By far, the hardest thing is ecosystem management. We should and could have done better on Abstracts release date. Intuitively, we have about 120 excellent applications that can be embedded in the EVM architecture, but for various reasons, only 5 applications are ready on the release date. As we all know, there are too many things to do in a blockchain network. But this is also easy to solve because we have various communication channels, so now all we have to do is to push each channel forward step by step. This is actually a management and operation issue, especially the need to try to treat all builders equally.
Q10 : AI is undoubtedly the hottest topic at the moment. Have you considered integrating AI technology or exploring other emerging fields? What specific directions are you preparing for?
Luca: We have prepared some AI-related things for the PENGU ecosystem and the Fat Penguin ecosystem. We are about to deploy an AI project on the Abstract network with a veteran in the AI industry. She is from Japan and is also a friend of mine. She has been deeply involved in the digital avatar field of Web2 for many years and has 4 years of experience in AI digital human production. She is a pioneer in this industry. She has had in-depth cooperation with LV and Balenciaga, and her digital avatar image has appeared on the stage as a supermodel.
Later, she will launch a new AI project and corresponding tokens on Abstract. I think this will be the hottest token in the Abstract ecosystem so far, and I am also looking forward to her projects and products. So, there is no doubt that our ecosystem is about to usher in a big explosion of AI projects. The specific time has not been determined, but I can reveal that the name of this AI is Miria AI. This may be the coolest AI project in Abstract in the short term, because it is different from those AI Agents that are flooding the X platform. It is more like luxury brands such as LV and Balenciaga in the field of AI.
Q11 : What new progress has Pudgy Penguins made in terms of mass adoption? Such as online and offline toy sales, IP cooperation, etc.? How to extend the life cycle of IP? How does the Pudgy Penguin team balance traditional IP business and crypto-native business?
Luca: Yes, we will probably announce some updates this week, including several offline store sales in Korea. A few days ago, we just announced a collaboration with Candy Pez, a highly recognizable and highly recognized retail brand (Odaily Planet Daily Note: This is an Austrian company specializing in the production of candy and manual candy dispensers, founded in 1927, with the Chinese name Beisi Candy). We have been promoting brand cooperation. Last year, the sales volume of fat penguin toys exceeded 2 million, and the sales volume was excellent. In December 2024 alone, we sold about 400,000 toys, setting a record so far.
Regarding business balance, our team currently has 65 people, 20 of whom are in the encryption field and 45 in the IP field. Clear division of labor brings about a better business balance.
Q 12 : Can you share your outlook for 2025?
Luca: I think this year will be the year of Igloo; PENGU will not only be ranked 12th in the Meme coin market cap, but will also be in the top three; Abstract will be the only market competitor, especially in driving user adoption, and will compete directly with Base. I believe that Pudgy Penguins NFT will become the number one project in the NFT market by the end of this year.
Q13 : As a creator, how should you contribute to the Abstract ecosystem and get corresponding rewards and incentives?
Luca: Yes, the live broadcast mechanism is the most exciting part of the Abstract ecosystem, and I hope everyone can participate in it. For individual content creators, we will have a lot of rewards, and this aspect accounts for a very high proportion.
I personally and the Abstract ecosystem have the utmost respect for content creators. Especially live-streaming bloggers, such as sports bloggers, can earn rewards by live-streaming themselves playing basketball, although this is not particularly much. The point is that users can transmit content by fixing an Abstract live-streaming application, and create content around this action, thereby enhancing user stickiness, expanding network effects, and finding their own PMF and subsequent growth flywheel. For top live-streaming bloggers, this is a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity.
If a token in the Abstract ecosystem achieves this goal, the corresponding rewards will be very considerable. But the premise is that you must contribute to the development of the ecosystem. In other words, your live broadcast and sports content on Twitch or other platforms does not mean much to me, but if you live broadcast on the Abstract app and continue to produce ecosystem-related content, then your returns will be maximized. So what you have to do now is to apply for creators and complete the corresponding process operations. We will gradually disclose more information in the next few weeks.
Odaily Planet Daily: It sounds like Abstract may become a competitor to social media such as YouTube and Tiktok in the future?
Yes, thats right.
